Would it be possible for the fire department to supply last year's budget as well as a comparison of the budget to actual expenses? Just about every business in this country, including most mom & pops, run a budget analysis comparison along with their income statements. I am sure our fire department would be required by law to furnish this information to the state. I would pray the fire department runs a budget analysis or how would they know how they are doing during the year?
A few months ago, the fire department was able to purchase two new trucks that cost in excess of a million because of a budget surplus so they surely have an analysis.
Fire department members and township employees pretending to be taxpayers, who are offended by my request, take your complaints elsewhere. The fire department should be delighted to share this information as it is asking for taxpayer’s approval to spend over $3 million.
I am not asking for a comparison of the fire department’s budget to the police department’s budget. I am just asking to see how budget compares to actual - a simple report. I am sure our fire chief would be delighted to share that information with taxpayers.

Thats wonderful, thats only part of the tax bill....the bigger question is the new schools and spending on that and how much is the rate going up....Lets hope things change and I do not mean for the worse...Its bad enough now....

Ric, you could contact the Business Office of the Fire District which is in the Township Building, or go to a Fire Commission meeting and be heard directly by them. Transparency for government is a great thing. However, seldom does the general public ever attend any of the Fire Commission meetings. They are held on the 2nd and 3rd Tuesday of the month in the township building.

Thanks for the suggestion Dean. I do not understand why you oppose the fire department sharing actual information about expenses with taxpayers at Patch – it is a great public forum. This will help us vote intelligently on the proposed budget. They already have the information. They used it to come up with the next year’s budget.
And,, as you rightly pointed out, very few taxpayers attend Fire Commission hearings. So think of sharing the actual information at Patch as a good way to reach out to taxpayers.
Does your position on this issue have anything to do with your prior statement that you “a public employee, and a union member”? I firmly believe that taxpayers need to be well informed – I hope I convinced you and all public union members to agree that taxpayers need to be better informed.

Ric, I absolutely agree with that. You don't have to convince me at all. I am not against the info being shared, but there is a process to follow to get that info if they didn't share it. I'm not in the position that I have any information to share with you, but many of us agree that you pose very valid points. I simply am doing my best to assist you by guiding you in the right direction to get the info. If the district isn't forthcoming, there is nothing I can do about it, but if you are truely interested, please speak to the District office, they can get you any info you require, or tell you the stuff you need to OPRA. Ric, I support your cause, but I ask that you realize that the whole transparency thing is new, and people are going to be slow to embrace the changes.

Dean, thank you. I am asking for actual expenses because year after year the fire district claims they earned a surplus but in actuality they simply over inflated that year’s budgets. The 2013 budget like the 2012 budget and earlier budget were over inflated. Cinnaminson taxpayers are being asked to pay a tax rate to the fire district in excess of what is really needed.
For example, the fire district was able to purchase to new fire trucks this year without raising taxes because of accumulated budget surpluses. These surpluses are from tax payers over paying fire district taxes. Obviously the budget is too high; a quick comparison to the fire district’s 2012 actual expense would reveal that. And it is for that reason the fire district does not want to reveal the 2012 actual cost to Patchers.

Ric, while you and I have differing views in how they came by their surplus, I'm sure their is merit to both of our opinions. I respect your opinion and encourage you to seek out the facts through the appropriate channels. Please, if you really feel this strongly, call the office and talk to the districts representative about having these financial reports released....if you don't, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Information is available, but they don't have to spoon feed to any if us. Your desire for change is commendable, but if you only do it from behind the keyboard, you are as ignorable as turning off the computer or not looking at a private news site in the first place.

Ric, your not telling me anything I do not know, our houses are over assessed bye about $50,000 and its likely all our homes are that way....How long that has been going on is not know to me but our part time assessor thinks we are dumb or something....Now they want to spend more money for schools and put up cones for the flooding in the area of the Shoppes....oh well, we fight what we can and try to change things, I for one will not remove the snow from the Hydrants b/c the dept of public works puts it there....I have enough trouble just doing my sidewalk....being old is not fun....enjoy the balance sheet if U get it....good luck

@ Ric Let me ask you this. When is the last time that Cinnaminson township committee posted its actual line by line itemized budgets from one year to the next on Patch or any news outlets for that matter? They will tell you to spend more of your money and submit an application for an OPRA and then you will sit and wait to receive it. I am not saying what you are requesting is outrageous. By all means I commend you for being one of the few who have the nerve to use their name and speak up. But as Dean has said, if you were to go to the district office or call them (829-5220), I am sure they would be more than happy to supply you with that information. What you do with it after that is your business. I hope you do get out and vote this Saturday along with the rest of the township instead of the same 70 to 80 residents who speak for the rest of the taxpayers.

John, please do not be stubborn about cleaning the snow away from your hydrant if it is in front of your house. If you are as you say elderly, send me your address and I will do it for you or maybe a neighbor can help. It may be the very hydrant that saves you or your neighbor’s home someday.

Mark, you raised some excellent points, thank you, but I will not call them.
The fire district made a public appeal for votes at this forum and therefore it should share budgetary information at this forum. I am sure the fire district would rather not make public the size of their surplus but this is a public matter and deserves airing in public. It is certainly your prerogative (or any Patch reader) to contact the fire district and share the information. Frankly, the fire chief can post that information at Patch in less than five minutes and from past experience I know he is aware of any conversation at Patch regarding the fire district.
Voters deserve to know how much surplus is built into this year’s budget and how much surplus from previous years are they holding their balance sheet. Unless we know the size of the budget surplus, voters should vote the budget down.
You are 100% correct that the township should (and school district) should also be sharing actual expenses and balance sheet information. I will be reviewing that information at the time a new budget is proposed.
On another matter, I do not have a hydrant near my home but I do agree residents should clean them if we should get a snowfall that accumulates. It might be the edge that saves a life at a burning home.

Let's raise taxes and give more of our hard earned money to the people that don't work and live off the nip of the people that work for their money!

I must jump in here: The fire district did not make a public appeal for votes on Patch. I, as a reporter and editor, reached out to the fire chief for a story on the upcoming vote.

There is absolutely no obligation for any township official to release ANY information on Patch. All of that information is ready and available for all residents who wish to view it or get a copy. I would never expect a township official to make documents available for one or two people in the comments section who want to see it. Do your due diligence as a resident and get the documents. If you wish to share them with the community in this forum, so be it.

But I'll not have others thinking it's township officials' duty to post that information here in my never-ending effort to make sure everyone realizes we are an independent online newspaper, not affiliated with the township at all.

Christina, I apologize. I thought, as a community service, Patch would be a great forum for the fire district to disclose how large of a surplus it’s carrying. I had not realized the fire district wanted to keep that information secret from taxpayers, like myself, who follow Patch for information about this township.
As a reminder to all following this thread:
The 2013 budget still requires voter approval. Please come out and vote on Saturday, February 16, 2013 between 2PM and 9PM at the Cinnaminson Township Community Center, 1621 Riverton Road, Cinnaminson.

Ric - you do realize you do have the right to exercise your right to vote and vote NO if you feel that the fire department budget is out of line.
If you spent even a fraction of the time that you do posting her on Patch actually making an effort to get the information that you are requesting, you would probably get the answers you are looking for.
The Patch is not run by the Township, nor is it an "official" outlet for the Fire Department, School District, Library, or any other town entity. Go through the proper channels. It's that simple.

@ Ric, we all know costs rise every year, from salaries, to fuel, equipment, supplies, water, hydrant rentals and just about everything else. For the Fire District not to raise taxes for 5 years, your point is well taken. Thankfully, they have not tried to raise taxes anyway, which they would probably get away with since voter turnout is usually firefighters and their families. I often wondered why the township never carries a surplus instead of spending every single dime every year on the dumbest things, rather than save a few bucks for the unexpected. The Fire Department must have been really overtaxing us for the past several years, but I do thank them for using this money wisely to pay for rising costs, and not having us pay more.

I would rather see them sell both Fire Departments, use that money to build one nice big new one behind Walmart, more in the center of town. Combine all equipment and personnel and save us even more money. Isn't the big thing now "shared services"?, and if so, why do we have two Fire Departments?

Just FYI, Moorestown is raising their Fire taxes for their two Departments, and their total budget is still under $3,000,000, or about $750,000 LESS than ours. .???

Bull Pitt, Moorestown FD and Cinnaminson FD are not at all similar in staffing or operation. Unfortunately not comparable.

Some one had better check there tax statements and look at the penny increase from the fire department....thats an INCREASE not the same rates as last year so how can they say they have not gone up....When we get our tax bills each year for the new tax year why can they not include budget information pertaining to school, fire, open lands and the list goes on....after all its OUR TAX MONEY THAT THEY SPEND....No wonder there are vacant houses here, the crap is knee deep....have a great day....

Before one fire fighter puts on his/her boots to respond to a call, it costs Cinnaminson taxpayers almost an average of $300 just to pay for the administration of three people holding four positions: fire chief, fire inspector, fire official and administrator $293, 580. That does not include their benefits, health insurance or the secretary. In comparison the wages of the fighters is only $948,880.
$300 is what it costs to pay the fire chief and his entourage every time the fire department responds, whether the call be for a cat stuck on a tree or to check on a fire hydrant. And many times none of these top three people actually respond to a call.
There is no excuse for the fire department’s gouging of taxpayers. We need to send a message to the fire district (and the township) voters are not going to accept high taxes anymore.
I found this information from a PDF document online and I cannot link directly, but it can be found by a Google search: Cinnaminson fire district 2012 budget actual
Then scroll down to Supplemental Schedules – o5.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/.../d15625793f4c0a14fac7299ea0f8946c
From the Fire Department’s 2012 Supplemental Schedule
Salaries only
fire official 1 person 73671
administrator 1 person 45940
fire chief 1 person 96000
fire inspector 77969
salaries 3 persons – admin 293580

I hope voters send a wakeup call to the fire chief by voting down this much too extravagant budget. How can he justify a budget of almost $4m when we have a major fire only once every several years? The budget is far in excess of what is needed - to the point that the fire department will not even disclose how large of a surplus it is carrying on its books. There is no tax increase because there is a huge surplus.
Why does a fire department need a fire chief, fire inspector, fire official and an administrator at a cost of $300k a year not including their benefits when most calls they get are just routine? Either the position of fire official or fire inspector should be eliminated and the functions be shared by the remaining administrators.
A no vote will not close the fire department; but, it will force the fire chief to cut back his lavish spending and reduce the taxes levied on the taxpayers. Just say no to our fire chief’s excessive spending. Our township has many expensive projects it wants to spend money on. To pay for those projects the fire district needs to stop spending money lavishly. Our police department suffered draconian cuts while our fire department spends money like there is no tomorrow.
Vote no today. Send a message that enough is enough.

@ Mark, that number for Moorestown is the TOTAL Fire budget. I don't understand why we can't compare Moorestown to Cinnaminson. They are right next door, their town is close in size and their population is larger. Their tax base is also larger, meaning they pay more taxes than Cinnaminson, yet their Fire budget is $750,000 less.
We also do not need both Cinnaminson Departments. Sell the properties and build one nice new one, more in the center of town. Merge all equipment vehicles and officers and save taxpayers money.

I hope voters vote down this much too costly budget. How can the fire chief justify a budget of almost $4m when there is a major fire In Cinnaminson only once every several years? The 2013 budget is far in excess of what is needed. It is full of excess surpluses to the point that the fire department will not even disclose how large of a surplus it is carrying on its books.
Why does a fire department need a fire chief, fire inspector, fire official and an administrator at a cost of $300k a year not including their benefits when most calls they get are just routine? Either the position of fire official or fire inspector should be eliminated and the functions be shared by the remaining administrators. A quick look at the Cinnaminson website shows the fire district has far more chiefs than workers.
A no vote on the budget will not close the fire department; but, it will force the fire chief to cut back his lavish spending and reduce the taxes levied on the taxpayers. Our school district wants to build a new high school; we need to cut taxes across the board to pay for the new school. So the fire district needs to stop spending money lavishly. Our police department suffered draconian cuts while our fire department spends money like there is no tomorrow.
Vote no today. Send a message that enough is enough.

So Eric, did you vote?

I voted NO.

While I agree you can not compare Cinnaminson with Moorestown or any other department I still feel the budget is wildly extravagant. For example, I was recently informed that in addition to their usual paid-firefighters (the ones whom the township employs full-time) they are also paying their "volunteers" to "volunteer" - some making $10,000+/yr. With a full-time career staff and a limited number of calls I don't understand why this is needed - it's just extravagant spending - other towns do not do this and still manage to go to their calls & they do not have a 24/7 full-time staff (ie Delran, Palmyra, Riverton). Apparently they forgot the definition of "volunteer"

vol·un·teer
/ˌvälənˈti(ə)r/
Noun
A person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task.
Verb
Freely offer to do something.

VOTE NO!

All of you that are complaining come out and volunteer your time. (IE. every Monday day night, some Saturdays or any time during the week that something comes up, and that is for training, and for the last 3 hrs putting out a house fire. That I am sure no of you have the guts to do.) So stop sitting behind your key board and come out and see what else we do. Stop telling everybody what they should do.

Thanks.

Then leave the snow around the hydrant if it's such a burden. Clearing snow is not the toughest thing a fire fighter will do in their life time. The hydrants are there for YOUR protection, The extra seconds. Or minutes it takes to clear them for use will feel like hours if it's your house on fire but by all means, When it snows and you're out shoveling, Don't take a few moments and clear the hydrants...Just sit at your computer and complain about stupid stuff...P.S, I'm a volunteer who doesn't get paid a dime and I don't mind clearing snow before I save your family/property so just sit there, It's OK.

MR RIC, ARE YOUR FIGURES ABOUT AMOUNT OF FIRE PERSONEL ACCURATE? HOW IN THE WORLD DID THIS COMMITTEE JUSTIFY TEARING DOWN OUR PD, GETTING RID OF OUR DISPATCHERS, AND CUTTING PUBLICS WORKS PERSONEL, WHILE ALLOWING A FIRE DEPARTMENT TO GROW LARGER THAN OUR PD? AND DON'T GIVE ME THIS CRAP ABOUT IT NOT BEING YOUR TAX DOLLARS! WE ALL PAY TAXES FOR OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS TO SEE THAT THEY GO WHERE THEY SHOULD. IF THEY SEE AN INJUSTICE, IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX IT. THIS IS CRAZY! AND ANOTHER THING, WHY CAN'T WE COMPARE CINNAMINSON TO MOORESTOWN? WE ARE CONSTANTLY COMPARING OUR TOWN TO EVERY TOWN AROUND US. IF MOORESTOWN RUNS THEIR FIRE DEPARTMENT ADEQUATELY AND IS ALMOST A MILLION BUCKS CHEAPER, I WANT TO KNOW WHY. ARE WE HANDLING MORE FIRES? DO WE RESCUE MORE CATS? OR IS IT THEY SIMPLY DON'T PAY 4 CHIEFS, 3 CAPTAINS AND 6 LIEUTENANTS? HOW MANY CAPTAINS AND LIEUTENANTS DOES OUR PD HAVE? I KNOW WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIEF. WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON IN THIS TOWN!? AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THIS VOTE UNTIL TODAY!

@david your are right the pd does not a chief they have a psd, that runs he pd but he can't do any police work because he is not a sworn police officer. So you pay him to push paper and that is it. (Waste of money yes) they need to move Lt. Young into the chief's position. the fd chief can do anything on the fire side and he pushes paperwork. Waste of money no. Comparing Moorestown to Cinnaminson, no you can't we have 14 paid firemen ( fire marshal, fire inspector, 3 Lt.'s and the rest are firemen) Moorestown has none. And that is why your a million dollars cheaper. And by the way the Cfd has about 30 active members volunteers (maybe more) you will have to ask the Cfd that part.

Tom, I think your attack on the police department is not justified. Our PD has just one centrally located station. Why does the FD need two stations - both at the town’s far borders? I will concede Moorestown has two fire stations but that town is about twice as large as us. Surely it would be better to have just one station centrally located near the PD.
The fire department is up to its eyeballs in expensive administrators. It has four chiefs: Line Chief Kramer, Line Deputy Chief Sconfeld, Battalion Chief Harry Smith, and Battalion Chief Scott Stavely. There are chiefs just to chief the two battalion chiefs.
You know just salaries alone, the four top fire administrators pull in $300k while the fire fighters get &949k. This has been asked before, how many of the firefighters share the $949k salary the fire department reports?
Tom, no one is disputing the quality of services rendered by the FD. The problem is the price of those services is excessive. Certainly by this time next year the FD will be forced to cut back as the town struggles to find ways to pay for a new school. I hope a rising star in the FD has the foresight to propose significant changes to the way the FD is run. I am sure that person that takes a lead in curbing the fire department’s excessive spending will go far in the town government.

Your are right about the the Cfd they do have a chief, dep, chief, and 2 batt. Chief's but they are not paid full time career people. The are volunteers, the get a stipend. If I am correct I think the Cfd about 10 years ago tried to get the ok to get central location for a new fire house but it was shot down by the township committee. Because they said the Cfd did not need one. So if you want you can thank them for that. They did not want to lose any possible tax money that could come in from a business. So if you want come out and tell the district that you want them to build a new build for the fire department now. Building a fire house and a new school have fun paying that bill because I sure am not I will move in a heart beat. I am not saying anything bad about the CPD they do a great job I just think that paying a PSD is a waste of money when if something goes down he can not do anything police related. They need to go back the way it was with a chief, maybe 2 Lt.'s and so on. I think the CPD was a better run department then.

Tom, let me start off with: I suspect next year someone with political savvy will turn support against the FD. Perhaps a fiscal conservative town council member will take it up. Or maybe a fire department member will run against the budget to further his or her political career.

The same number of people voted in 2013 as 2012. But the number of no votes went up 50%. If 25 more voters can be persuaded just to vote no the next FD budget would be defeated. All it takes is getting the police or other township employees turn their support against the FD. And why wouldn’t they? They all suffer cutbacks so the township can fund excesses of the FD. That is just a shift of 25 votes.
There are more paid employees at our fire department than at Moorestown’s FD, a rich town, which is almost double the size of Cinnaminson. Our FD is way over staffed and way overpaid. The fire department is close to double the size of the Cinnaminson police force. And we see a major fire every couple of years.

Tom, what I enjoy the most about your explanations is usually clear things up but not this time. How can you call our chief Kramer a volunteer when he is paid close to $100,000? None of the four chiefs can be called a volunteer because they all are paid. Do you agree? How many of the firefighters do not share in any of that $948,800 that is paid to the firefighters?

You must not be listing so I'm done explaining go to your next fire district meeting and ask them to see if what I am saying is true, then maybe I will entertain you after that. As usual most people only hear what they want to hear. Oh ya by the the CFD does not just provide as you said only a few major fires. They provide EMS, fire alarms, CO alarms, rescue of all different things cars, people suck on fences, and so on. So you are right about one thing and that is that the CFD does only have a major fire every few years. But because of the paid and volunteers of the CFD most of the fires that they have are stopped very fast IE this past Saturday on Election Day, but I bet you and you buddy's will think that was a set up also.

Continued from last post

With respect to the comment by a.cinnaminson.resident about me not returning his call, he is incorrect. I did return his call on Friday but he didn't answer. Interesting that the name he left for me to call, Bill Johnson, was not the name on his voice mail. And with respect to him suggesting that I am an old autocrat fire chief he should know that I am a 40 year veteran volunteer who over the past five years that i have held this position has guided my officer staff into applying for and receiving over 350,000 in grants with three more recently submitted. I would challenge him to match my commitment to our community.

If anyone would like to speak to me directly you can leave your real name and number at 856-829-5220.

Bill Kramer

@ric isn't that what I said..... About the line officers and the career firemen. But I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. Thanks for the info Chief.

@Chief Kramer - 1 0f 2
Before I start, no one, including myself, is denigrating the services of the FD. I appreciate those who serve the public. Both of my grandfathers were cops, one died in service in Jersey City – but that was back during the depression but my mother told me much about him..
Thank you for the invitation. The information I am requesting should be shared with the general public and the Patch is a better forum to reach to all the good citizens who choose not to attend council meetings. I do not think either of us has to worry that the Patch editors will edit what is being said.
As you well know, if 25 votes went the other way, your 2013 budget would have been defeated. Many voters want to know the size of a surplus on the FD’s books and how much more of a surplus is in the 2013 budget. There is not a tax increase for 2013 because of surplus but no details are given to residents about the surplus. Will you please advise about the surplus?
I am glad to read that staffing has been reduced in the past few years. But frankly more has to be trimmed. I do not believe it should take a fire chief, a fire marshal, a chief, fire inspector, and an administrator to handle only a 1,000 inspections per year and issue hundreds of permits, etc. That workload averages out to 1.5 inspections/permits per person per workday.

@Chief Kramer - 2 0f 2
Also, please explain how that $948,800 is paid to the fire fighters? Other than to call it “stipend” you don’t explain how firefighters are paid.
As it has been pointed out by many, our town is much smaller (and poorer) to Moorestown yet our FD is much more costly.
And at the same time, both of our fire stations are located on our far borders (and on the same side of Rt. 130). I believe Cinnaminson would be better served by one brand new fire station which is centrally located near the PD. It could be easily afforded by selling the two other stations and economies of scale – eliminating personnel and equipment which was only required by the two station setup.
In closing, I hope you will explain the surpluses as well as payroll costs and consider bold ways to run the fire department efficiently for us tax payers that are about to be asked to pay for a new high school.

Well Ric, you still don't get it. We have one paid Engine Company that can get to you fast while the volunteers bring up the rear and complete the job. Great math with the 1.5 inpsections, but if you knew what you were talking about you would know that only the Fire Prevention Office is authorized by state law and must be licensed to conduct inspections. If they went to one station they may not be able to reduce the Fire Engines, something called "fire Flow and Department ISO rating. Say we eliminated two engines, your home owners insurance may increase by $300 to $500 per year because our ISO Rating (rated 1 to 9) may drop 2 points or so. Just think for a little more than the cost of a pack of Marlboro's each week ($8.47 or so) We get Fire Service, EMS Engine, Inspections, and more. Every year they have saved numerous lives and property. Most of the surplus is genetated when they get
a grant, and can use the budgeted line item for tax offset and savings. I think your barking up the wroung tree, attend some meetings and learn something, unless unfounded opinions are your MO.

@Resident since 1761, Let me ask again: 1.) Is the surplus that the CFD is hiding in excess of one million, five million, or more than ten million dollars? 2.) How many firefighters share in the $948,800 that was budgeted? Is it 10 firefighters getting $94,800 a year?
Now why are of all of you guys at the firestation avoiding telling the truth about your hidden surplus and wages?
As far as homeowner’s insurance, most residents would pay lower premiums with a centerally located fire station instead of two stations located on our far borders. Of course thos who live in Delran and Palmyra would benefit by our stations being practically in their towns. I am not going to respons to anything else you said because you are trying to divert attention from the surplus and payroll excesses.
Let me end by saying: 1.) Is the surplus that the CFD is hiding in excess of one million, five million, or more than ten million dollars? 2.) How many firefighters share in the $948,800 that was budgeted? Is it 10 firefighters getting $94,800 a year?
WHY IS THE CFD AFRAID OF TELLING TAXPAYERS ABOUT THE SURPLUS BEING SQUIRELED AWAY AND THE SALARIES BEING PAID FIREFIGHTERS?